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Monday, January 8, 2007
Last Saturday, the gang of Forbes magazine pundits that blather
their way through the weekly edition of Forbes on FOX engaged
in a macabre discussion about whether or not hanging dictators
would be "good for the economy". I kid you not! Here's
the transcript. Barf bags are recommended.
DAVID ASMAN: Up next. The more dictators we hang, the safer the
world and your money is gonna be. That's comin' up. Plus, the
more manufacturing jobs we lose this year, the better our economy
will do. All these Flipside topics comin' up right here. You're
only gonna hear it on Forbes on FOX.
DAVID ASMAN: So, Mike, hang 'em high?
MIKE OZANIAN, senior editor & sports statistician, Forbes
Magazine: "Not all dictators, David. Just those dictators
that have come out and said they wanna kill us, kill Israel or
any of our allies. I'd start with Iran. They're already stockpiling
nuclear weapons of destruction. We should go after them first
and make an example of them 'cause not only would it be good for
our safety, it would be good for the market as well."
DAVID ASMAN: Against the North Koreans as well?
OZANIAN: I mean, ya' make them number 2.
Comment: What has this guy smoking? First of all, Iran does not
have any "nuclear weapons of destruction". By the most
conservative estimate, they are at least three years away from
having either a warhead or the means to deliver it. Week in and
week out, Ozanian makes outrageous statements yet he is nothing
more than sports statistician. He's a glorified overpaid, loud-mouthed
bean counter, not a trained foreign policy expert.
DAVID ASMAN: Quentin, what do you think?
QUENTIN HARDY, Silicon Valley Bureau Chief, Forbes Magazine:
Oh my goodness. Two things. One. The death penalty solves nothing.
It is a revenge play and it is an argument for civilization that
most countries have outlawed it. But, two, you don't just get
to kill them, Mike. You have to apprehend them first. In the case
of Iraq that meant invading and, frankly, who likes this war at
this point? And who liked the execution? Did you like that we
were an accomplice to the way that guy died? Do you want to replay
all this again? I don't get it.
ASMAN: Lea. Hold on. Hold on. Lea.
LEA GOLDMAN, Associate Editor, Forbes Magazine: You know what?
I haven't lost a wink of sleep over that execution. And I wouldn't
lose a wink of sleep if I saw, you know, Kim Jong Il or Ahmadinejad,
you know, twisting in the wind. Those things don't bother me.
My problem is that the tragic outcome that has become Iraq is
going to chasten us going forward when we really have to deal
decisively with military action to threats that affect us, the
U. S. and the world. Iran is a global threat and we're gonna be
- we're gonna be worse for the wear dealing with that country
now that, you know, we have Iraq on our back.
ASMAN: Alright, we'll talk about Iran in a second, but, Rich,
what about it? Do we benefit from hanging these guys high?
RICH KARLGAARD, Publisher, Forbes Magazine: Well, let's distinguish
between the military threat and the economic threat, because a
century ago dictators like Stalin and Hitler commanded these huge
industrial economies and were bad for the world. Dictators today
play a negligible role in the $50 trillion a year world economy,
so we could hang 'em. That might be good for humanity but it would
do nothing for the economy.
ASMAN: Steve Forbes.
STEVE FORBES, Editor-in-Chief, Forbes Magazine: Well, the great
threat to our economy, of course, is nuclear weapons from Iran,
nuclear weapons of mass destruction. So when we get rid of these
bad guys, it's not only our safety, it's also good for the economy.
And so, we don't have to depose the dictators themselves. Just
provide the rope. The locals will do it.
ASMAN: Jim.
JIM MICHAELS, Senior Editor, Forbes Magazine: I agree completely.
But I also think we have to distinguish between authoritarian
governments that are friendly to us and those that are hostile.
I don't think we want to see the Saudi monarchy fall and be to
replaced by an Islamist government. Does anybody doubt if the
Shah was still in power we wouldn't be having Iran as a major
threat? So, I think when you talk about dictators, ya' gotta be
realistic. Ya' gotta be a little cynical.
ASMAN: Discriminating against dictators, Quentin? What do you
think about that?
HARDY: You know, this show is probably on the internet and watched
around the world and I have to apologize for the person who just
that there are good dictators we should support and bad ones we
should kill 'cause we sound like the most arrogant empire I ever
saw!
MICHAELS: Look. Look at Pinochet. If he had not been in power
- come to power - we would have had a Marxist dictatorship in
Chile which would have been [indecipherable].
HARDY (talking over Michaels): He was elected. He wasn't a dictator.
MICHAELS: Instead, we had free elections ...
HARDY: Allende was elected.
MICHAELS: ... eventually and one of the most democratic countries
in the world.
Comment: A little dose of reality about Augusto Pinochet, the
"right kind of dictator":
Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte (November 25,
1915-December 10, 2006) was a general and President of Chile.
Pinochet led a military junta to power in 1973, through a coup
d'état, deposing the democratically-elected Socialist President
Salvador Allende and establishing a military government. In 1974,
Pinochet appointed himself President and remained in power until
1990. Stating that Chile was under siege by communist subversives,
Pinochet implemented a series of security operations, with support
from the United States and other South American military governments,
in which (according to the Rettig Report) around 3,000 suspected
or known dissidents and leftists were killed, and (according to
the Valech Report) around 30,000 more were tortured. He later
implemented economic reforms which his supporters credit with
the development of the robust modern Chilean economy and his opponents
identify with large increases in unemployment, poverty and decline
in real wages, with little effect on longterm economic performance.
.... In 2004, a United States Senate money laundering investigation
led by Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) and Norm Coleman (R-MN) uncovered
a network of over 125 securities and bank accounts at Riggs Bank
and other U.S. financial institutions used by Pinochet and his
associates for twenty-five years to secretly move millions of
dollars. Though the subcommittee was charged only with investigating
compliance of financial institutions under the USA PATRIOT Act,
and not the Pinochet regime, Sen. Coleman noted: “This is
a sad, sordid tale of money laundering involving Pinochet accounts
at multiple financial institutions using alias names, offshore
accounts, and close associates. As a former General and President
of Chile, Pinochet was a well-known human rights violator and
violent dictator.” (Wikipedia)
ASMAN: Rich, what about that?
HARDY (trying to get his point across): Allende was elected.
ASMAN: Hold on a second. What about Pinochet? Here was a dictator
who actually led to economic growth in Chile, the only country
in Latin America that did so in the 80s.
KARLGAARD: Well, look, the late Jeane Kirkpatrick defined this
path where authoritarians like Pinochet and maybe even Lee Kuan
Yew in his beginning days in Singapore are not our cup of tea.
Might be somebody's definition of a dictator but they move their
countries in the right direction. And let us not forget, Quentin,
Pinochet, when he lost an election, stepped down peacefully.
ASMAN: Lea, let me ask. What happens if we do get rid of North
Korean and Iranian dictatorships. I mean, would we feel the benefits
(rubbing his fingers together) right away in the market?
GOLDMAN: Unlikely. Because they have populations that have been
suppressed for years and years and when you talk about the Middle
East you have populations that are completely unfamiliar with
democracy. I mean, it's not - it's not like you're not going to
see immediate results but do I think in the long term that the
world is better without them? You bet!
ASMAN: Yeah, better, but what about right now? The money, the
market and the economy?
FORBES: The market, the market would soar. It's no coincidence
the market roared in the 1990s when the cold war came to an end.
ASMAN: The peace dividend.
FORBES: We could focus our brains on productive things instead
of just defending ourselves.
ASMAN: So we wouldn't have that overhang, Mike Ozanian?
OZANIAN: And it's no coincidence how much the market's gone up
since we abducted Saddam. That is not a coincidence. And I don't
know how Rich could possibly say the economic impact is small.
Comment: And the market has tanked since Saddam's execution.
GOLDMAN: Right.
OZANIAN: You talk about the Middle East and all the oil there,
Rich. You think that's a small impact? These countries may have
small economies ....
ASMAN: Quickly, Rich, quickly.
OZANIAN: ... but they have big influence.
KARLGAARD: Yeah, but they're pumping oil today, aren't they?
I mean, you know. What I'm saying is that dictators command very
tiny economies unlike centuries ago when they commanded big ones.
ASMAN: I don't think anybody would argue that we'd be better
off without these guys.
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