Akiva Eldar
Haaretz
Friday, January 19, 2007
Jordan aspires to develop nuclear power for peaceful purposes
and believes that unless all sides move quickly toward a peace
settlement in the region, the recent confrontation in Lebanon
is only a hint of disasters to come. In an exclusive interview
with Haaretz on Thursday, King Abdullah II of Jordan spoke with
Akiva Eldar:
"I can say that on behalf of the U.S. president and the
secretary of state, and I've talked to both, that they're very
serious and very committed to moving the peace process forward,
because they realize the dynamics of the region at the moment.
"And this is the opportunity to reach out to the Palestinians
and the Israelis and say, look, this is the golden chance and
to an extent, maybe the last possibility. We had a conflict this
summer.
"The frequency of conflict in this region is extremely alarming,
and the perception, I believe, among Arabs, and partly among Israelis,
is that in the summer Israel lost this round... And that creates
a very difficult and a very dangerous precedence for radical thinking
in the area. The stakes are getting higher and higher.
"So this is an opportunity to reach out to each other and
make sure that the crisis of this summer doesn't happen again.
If we don't move the peace process forward, it's only a matter
of time until there is a conflict between Israel and somebody
else in the region. And I think it's coming sooner rather than
later.
"We all need to work together, because solving the Israeli-Palestinian
problem allows us to tackle the other issues around us. All of
us are looking at Iraq with concern, we don't know what's going
to happen in Lebanon, although we hope that they're moving in
the right direction... Whether people like it or not, the linchpin
is always the Israeli-Palestinian problem."
Do you see a clear link between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
and the Iranian nuclear threat and the threat of terrorism?
"Through Hamas, Iran has been able to buy itself a seat
on the table in talking about the Palestinian issue. And, as a
result, through Hamas it does play a role in the issue of the
Palestinians, as strange as that should sound.
"If we start moving the process forward, then there's less
reason for engagement on the Palestinian issue.
"But, the rules have changed on the nuclear subject throughout
the whole region. Where I think Jordan was saying, 'we'd like
to have a nuclear-free zone in the area,' after this summer, everybody's
going for nuclear programs.
"The Egyptians are looking for a nuclear program. The GCC
[Gulf Cooperation Council] are looking at one, and we are actually
looking at nuclear power for peaceful and energy purposes. We've
been discussing it with the West.
"I personally believe that any country that has a nuclear
program should conform to international regulations and should
have international regulatory bodies that check to make sure that
any nuclear program moves in the right direction."
In other words, you're saying that you expect Israel to join
the NPT.
"What's expected from us should be a standard across the
board. We want to make sure this is used for energy. What we don't
want is an arms race to come out of this. As we become part of
an international body and its international regulations are accepted
by all of us, then we become a united front."
Would you first deal with the Palestinian track and then move
on to the Syrian-Lebanese track?
"Syria seems to be of tremendous interest in the Israeli
public opinion, but I think that the priority, if you want to
get the guarantees that Israel wants for a stable future, the
core issue takes the priority. We have to launch the Palestinian
process and then hope that things will go easier with the other
players.
"You have to start with the Palestinian first and look at
the other ones as a close second. I would hedge my bets on how
successful the other tracks would be if the Palestinian one is
not solved. And, we don't know how much of a smokescreen the other
tracks would be and if we don't get the right nuances for what
we need on the ground for the next year, then the future for us
looks extremely dismal, for all of us in the region, if we don't
move the process along.
"What happened this summer is just a taste of a lot of worse
things to come if we don't change the direction of this discord.
"We're all on the same boat. The security and the future
of Jordan is hand-in-hand with the future of the Palestinians
and the Israelis. ... So, a failure for us is a failure for you,
and vice versa."
How do you think the Americans should further the process?
"You have the road map, you have Taba, you have the Geneva
Accords. So, we don't have to go back to the drawing board. Most
of us know the facts and the issues extremely well. My only issue
about the road map is that circumstances have changed since the
road map was launched, and the sort of long drawn out phase approach,
I don't think works anymore. So, we're looking at combining phases,
I think, to move people as quickly as possible. The silent majority
can be easily intimidated or swayed. And, I promise you, if tomorrow,
[Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert and President [Palestinian Authority
Chairman Mahmoud] Abbas sit down and shake hands and launch a
peace process, there'll be extremists on either side that create
violence and loss of life to try and destabilize the conflict.
That is a given. We have to be stronger than that to be able to
move the process forward."
Would you suggest we go back to Yitzhak Rabin's formula: to pursue
the peace process as if there were no terrorism, and to fight
terrorism as if there were no peace process?
"I personally believe that my father's last biggest disappointment
and sadness to him was that he lost a partner for peace. And,
he believed that if PM Rabin hadn't been assassinated, we wouldn't
be talking about a peace process today. In the last years of His
Majesty's life, I saw him looking at the Middle East and realizing
that there wasn't somebody with the courage to be able to take
the process forward. It is our responsibility to move it forward.
"His late Majesty, when he started discussions with prime
minister Rabin, they both looked at it the same way, I mean these
were two statesmen that looked at it from an emotional point of
view, in that 'who is my partner on the other side? What are his
fears and his insecurities?' If I could put myself in his shoes
then I could understand what to negotiate ... it was a unique
relationship between His Majesty and Rabin. When it came to the
Arab-Israeli Peace Initiative, we tried to do the same thing.
An agreed solution on the issue of refugees.
"Why do we want a two-state solution? We want a two-state
solution because we envisage the future of Israel not just having
borders with Jordan, Syria or Egypt. The future of Israelis, if
I was to put myself in your shoes, is to be welcomed from Morocco
on the Atlantic to Oman on the Indian Ocean. I think that is the
prize for the Israelis. But that comes at a price and that is
the future of the Palestinians. So although we're talking politics,
I think that we have a physical problem and we're running out
of time, maybe the wall, maybe the settlements, the lack of hope
for the Palestinians will bring us to a point in time in the near
future where a two-state solution is no longer anything concrete
to talk about, then what happens? If we don't solve the Israeli-Palestinian
issue, then we may never be able to solve the Arab-Israeli issue.
Is this what we want to give our children? Do they have to be
brought up like we were brought up ... in conflict or do we want
to give them hope?"
If you were Israel's prime minister, would you settle for a hudna?
"I mean, you talk about the hudna. Tell me what you mean
about hudna. If you and I have a problem and we want to go to
the endgame, then we say, let's hold off with each other so we
can have an atmosphere to sit down and talk. If it's a hudna,
you do your thing and I do my thing for x amount of years and
then we'll decide what happens. No, that doesn't solve the problem.
In my vocabulary, a hudna is a truce that allows people to sit
around the table to solve the problem, which I believe is a two-state
solution, then I support that type of hudna. But a hudna to say
you mind your business and I'll mind mine for an indefinite period
of time really doesn't get us anywhere, does it?"
But in our case, Hamas insists on its refusal to recognize even
our right to exists. So, what kind of solution can we talk to
Hamas about?
"But, if you've noticed, and I'm not agreeing with either
side, but even the language recently coming from Hamas, even from
the Damascus bureau, is quite interesting. Palestinians are suffering
terribly, and I have major concerns. I hear from Israeli politicians
that we don't have a partner for peace. But the clock is ticking
and we're running out of opportunity.
"Palestinians tend to ask, where is the Arab street? Where
are the Arab leaders? We've always been there to support the Palestinians
and a two-state solution, but today, where are the Palestinians
for themselves? My concern is that as we're trying to move the
process forward, it may be the Palestinians that may lose the
future of Palestine if they don't get their act together, if they
don't put their differences aside. At the end of the day, a cohesive
Palestinian leadership that can negotiate the future of Palestine
is what's needed today, and if we don't have that in six months
or a year, then there may not be a two-state solution and I fear
that the Palestinians may be the ones to lose."
There are Israeli politicians who say that publicly Jordan supports
a full-fledged Palestinian state, but off-the-record that it is
not very excited about having a Palestinian state right there
in the Jordan valley and would rather have Israel on the other
side of its border. What would you say to them?
"I do not know anybody, any Jordanian, who would say that
there is a shred of common sense to that. The true future of our
little area is going to be Israeli, Palestinian and Jordanian,
and it has to be separate entities. There are also Israelis who
want to push the problem to Jordan. An independent Palestinian
state allows us a different future of how we move economically,
socially and even politically."
Jordan never gave up playing a constructive role in the holy
cities of Jerusalem. Do you see a Jordanian role in Jerusalem
as part of a final status solution?
"I look at Jerusalem as being a beacon for the three monotheistic
religions. Now, where Jordan plays a role is obviously from a
Muslim point of view, we, as Hashemites, have a historical role
in Jerusalem, but also all the Christian churches are credited
to us. So, there is obviously a role for Jordan in finding a solution
to Jerusalem that is acceptable to all of us. Jordan will be a
very positive element in that."
You're in a very special position, because Jordan is caught right
in the middle of two conflicts: Iraq and Palestine. Is the solution
for Iraq sending more troops?
"Iraq is a challenge that is as important to Jordan as it
is to Israel, as it is to Egypt, as it is to any other country
- and to the U.S.
"All we can say about Iraq is that the president has listened
to the Maliki government. He's come up with a statement saying,
I'm going to benchmark you, but you need to make some major changes.
"
Next month marks eight years since your coronation. You haven't
visited us yet. When are you coming to Israel?
"We're hoping that in the near future, and that could be
weeks or maybe in a month or two, there'll be an opportunity to
re-launch our final chance for a future for all of us in the region.
And, if we're successful in doing that, then this will allow me
to come and visit, and to try and bring the parties closer and
closer together. I'm quite willing to explain the Arab proposal
to the Israeli people and to create an internal dialogue about
this issue. The Arabs are coming to say we want peace, and we
want formal relations. And, as a human being, I can't understand
how anybody would not want that.
"We look at the neighborhood and we're all concerned. But,
the people who need to be equally concerned are the Israelis and
sometimes, they see the conflict happening in the Middle East
and think well, that's not our problem. But unfortunately, everything
that happens in the Middle East is interlinked. And so, this is
a challenge we all face."
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